I remember hearing secondhand that a woman was on some forum (I do not think this one) and her pastor-husband asked her what she was discussing. She replied, "The Trinity." To which he said, "With who?" She said, "The Orthodox." Hearing that, he said, "You're going to lose."
Thursday, November 29, 2007
(chuckle)
Slightly edited from a post at an Orthodox discussion forum:
Saturday, November 17, 2007
Two Greek Readers
I just received the following two books from Amazon:


The two books differ greatly from each other in both content and format.
Most of the selections in KOINE GREEK READER (KGR) by Rodney J. Decker ($17.15 at Amazon) are from the Bible, whether the Greek New Testament (for which there are not translations) or the Septuagint Old Testament (with translations). The book also includes short selections from Ignatius, the Didache, 1 Clement, and the Shepherd of Hermas, as well as four Creeds (the Nicene, Nicene-Constantinopolitan, Chalcedonian, and Apostles'), also with translations. All the selections, other than the Creeds, have supplemental readings, too, though these just have parallel translations and not vocabulary and grammatical notes. The New Testament selections begin with grammar reviews and vocabulary previews, and include recommended readings from various grammars, most of which the student should own or plan on owning, or at least have access to. KGR also includes several Appendices with helpful word lists and verbal charts and information, as well as Decker's essay on using BDAG (the Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich Lexicon), an earlier version of which is accessible from Decker's Website.
A Patristic GREEK READER (PGR) by Rodney A. Whitacre ($19.77 at Amazon) includes selections from the Didache, 1 Clement, Ignatius, the Epistle to Diognetus, the Martyrdom of Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Melito of Sardis, Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius, Athanasius, Gregory of Nazianzus, the Desert Fathers and Mothers, John Chrysostom, Hesychios the Priest, and Symeon the New Theologian, and includes translations of all texts. There is introductory and historical information for each selection, with extensive running lexical and grammatical notes under the text. A separate section in the book contains translations of all the texts. There are three brief Appendices: Appendix A - All words that occur 50x or more in the New Testament (i.e., the words the reader should already know); Appendix B - Principal Parts of Common Verbs; and Appendix C - The Selections Arranged in Order of Difficulty.
PGR is more of a straight reader, whereas KGR also incorporates aspects of a grammar workbook. The books are relatively inexpensive, so the student who is interested in increasing his proficiency in New Testament Greek and/or expanding his reading beyond the New Testament texts should consider buying both of them.


The two books differ greatly from each other in both content and format.
Most of the selections in KOINE GREEK READER (KGR) by Rodney J. Decker ($17.15 at Amazon) are from the Bible, whether the Greek New Testament (for which there are not translations) or the Septuagint Old Testament (with translations). The book also includes short selections from Ignatius, the Didache, 1 Clement, and the Shepherd of Hermas, as well as four Creeds (the Nicene, Nicene-Constantinopolitan, Chalcedonian, and Apostles'), also with translations. All the selections, other than the Creeds, have supplemental readings, too, though these just have parallel translations and not vocabulary and grammatical notes. The New Testament selections begin with grammar reviews and vocabulary previews, and include recommended readings from various grammars, most of which the student should own or plan on owning, or at least have access to. KGR also includes several Appendices with helpful word lists and verbal charts and information, as well as Decker's essay on using BDAG (the Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich Lexicon), an earlier version of which is accessible from Decker's Website.
A Patristic GREEK READER (PGR) by Rodney A. Whitacre ($19.77 at Amazon) includes selections from the Didache, 1 Clement, Ignatius, the Epistle to Diognetus, the Martyrdom of Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Melito of Sardis, Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius, Athanasius, Gregory of Nazianzus, the Desert Fathers and Mothers, John Chrysostom, Hesychios the Priest, and Symeon the New Theologian, and includes translations of all texts. There is introductory and historical information for each selection, with extensive running lexical and grammatical notes under the text. A separate section in the book contains translations of all the texts. There are three brief Appendices: Appendix A - All words that occur 50x or more in the New Testament (i.e., the words the reader should already know); Appendix B - Principal Parts of Common Verbs; and Appendix C - The Selections Arranged in Order of Difficulty.
PGR is more of a straight reader, whereas KGR also incorporates aspects of a grammar workbook. The books are relatively inexpensive, so the student who is interested in increasing his proficiency in New Testament Greek and/or expanding his reading beyond the New Testament texts should consider buying both of them.
Friday, November 16, 2007
"The Spirit, the holy, the lordly and life-giving one"
The Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed as it is usually translated states:
In his book Credo (Yale University Press, 2003), Jaroslav Pelikan writes the following about this phrase in the Creed:
(ο κυριος is just a masculine substantival form of the adjective, and η κυρια ("lady, mistress") is a feminine substantival form of the adjective. Couldn't το κυριον similarly be a substantival form of the adjective when referring to neuter nouns like Πνευμα, and not have to be the adjective "lordly"?)
I can think of a couple points in support of Pelikan's translation of κυριον as "lordly" (though I don't know if these were his reasons; he might have based his translation simply on το κυριον being neuter and agreeing with το Πνευμα):
"And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father"(Commas and capitalization are per the text in The Synekdêmos - ΣΥΝΕΚΔΗΜΟΣ ΟΡΘΟΔΟΞΟΥ ΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΟΥ. Note that there is no comma after Πνευμα.)
και εις το Πνευμα το αγιον, το κυριον, το ζωοποιον, το εκ του Πατρος εκπορευομενον
In his book Credo (Yale University Press, 2003), Jaroslav Pelikan writes the following about this phrase in the Creed:
"...the language about believing in the third hypostasis or person of the Trinity as 'the lordly and life-giving' Spirit. The original Greek of that epithet, which is to kyrion in the neuter rather than ton kyrion in the masculine, is, strictly speaking, an adjective meaning 'lordly, of the Lord,' not a noun to be translated as 'the Lord,' as it is already with the Latin Dominum et vivificantem and would be in most subsequent translations into various languages." (p. 52)Thus, instead of:
"And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father"Pelikan translates it as:
"And in the Spirit, the holy, the lordly and life-giving one, proceeding from the Father" (p. 25)In reciting and translating the Creed I had lazily overlooked this and/or assumed το κυριον was simply a neuterizing of ο κυριος to agree with the neuter το πνευμα. (κυριον would be the accusative form in both the masculine and the neuter.) This would be perhaps similar to the reason some give as to why Jesus calls Peter Πετρος in Matthew 16:18 in the wordplay with πετρα:
καγω δε σοι λεγω οτι συ ει Πετρος, και επι ταυτη τη πετρα οικοδομησω μου την εκκλησιαν, και πυλαι αδου ου κατισχυσουσιν αυτηςI.e., since πετρα is feminine, Jesus masculinizes it to Πετρος when naming Simon Peter, since He couldn't call him Πετρα.
(ο κυριος is just a masculine substantival form of the adjective, and η κυρια ("lady, mistress") is a feminine substantival form of the adjective. Couldn't το κυριον similarly be a substantival form of the adjective when referring to neuter nouns like Πνευμα, and not have to be the adjective "lordly"?)
I can think of a couple points in support of Pelikan's translation of κυριον as "lordly" (though I don't know if these were his reasons; he might have based his translation simply on το κυριον being neuter and agreeing with το Πνευμα):
- It is rare for the Spirit to be called "the Lord" in the New Testament. It only occurs at 2 Corinthians 3:17 and possibly at 2 Corinthians 3:18:
17 ο δε κυριος το πνευμα εστιν· ου δε το πνευμα κυριου, ελευθερια. 18 ημεις δε παντες ανακεκαλυμμενω προσωπω την δοξαν κυριου κατοπτριζομενοι την αυτην εικονα μεταμορφουμεθα απο δοξης εις δοξαν καθαπερ απο κυριου πνευματος.
At 3:17 it's ο κυριος το πνευμα εστιν ("the Lord is the Spirit"), not το κυριον το πνευμα εστιν ("the lordly one is the Spirit").3:18 reads απο κυριου πνευματος, and κυριου could be either the masculine noun κυριος, referring to Jesus or God the Father, or the neuter adjective κυριον (κυριος, -α, -ον), agreeing with πνευμα . As it stands, the phrase could be translated as:
- "from [the] of-[the]-Lord Spirit" = "from [the] Spirit of [the] Lord"
- "from [the] Lord, [the] Spirit" (i.e., the Lord = the Spirit)
- "from [the] Lord of [the] Spirit"
- "from [the] lordly Spirit" (= κυριον)
If it's the second possibility, then this verse calls the Spirit "the Lord."
- In the Creed, God is called "the Father" (more specifically "one Father" - ενα Θεον), and Jesus is called "the Lord" (more specifically "one Lord" - ενα Κυριον), before one gets to the article about the Spirit. It seems to me that the authors would not also call the Spirit "the Lord," since the Creed declares belief in (just) "one Lord." Nor would they want to confuse the Spirit in any way with the Son by calling them both "Lord," especially since they were careful to differentiate the Son's relationship to the Father from the Spirit's: the Son being begotten from the Father, and of one substance/essence with Him; and the Spirit proceeding from the Father (but with no mention of Him being of one substance with Him or with the Son).
"And in the holy, lordly, life-giving Spirit"Some of my questions are:
- Is Pelikan is right to translate το Πνευμα το αγιον as "The Spirit, the holy" - i.e., regarding αγιον more as an adjective than as part of the Spirit's proper name? (It seems to me, though, that a lot of the New Testament occurrences of το Πνευμα το αγιον are correctly translated in English as "the Holy Spirit.")
- At (or by) the time this phrase was added to the Creed (in 381 A.D. at The First Council of Constantinople), would the Church have regarded το Πνευμα το αγιον as meaning "the Holy Spirit" (as opposed to "the 'holy' Spirit")?
- Did the authors of the Creed choose to use the Second Attributive Position syntax (article-noun-article-adjective) - i.e., το Πνευμα το αγιον - instead of το αγιον Πνευμα (First Attributive Position - cf. Acts 1:8) or Πνευμα αγιον (Anarthrous Attributive - cf. Acts 19:2) because they viewed the phrase the same way Pelikan does (i.e., as meaning "the holy (adj.) Spirit")?
- Was το Πνευμα το αγιον the way the Church Fathers usually or often wrote "the Holy Spirit" (perhaps because this construction is very common in Acts) - as opposed to it meaning "the holy (adj.) Spirit"?
Friday, November 09, 2007
Hebrews 10:5: An Interesting Case for Hermeneutics, Canonicity and Inerrancy
(At some point I'll lay out or develop my thoughts about the following. Or maybe they'll just appear in the comments in response to what others may say.)
Hebrews 10:5 reads:
Hebrews 10:5 reads:
διο εισερχομενος εις τον κοσμον λεγει, θυσιαν και προσφοραν ουκ ηθελησας, σωμα δε κατηρτισω μοι
"Therefore when he comes into the world he says: 'Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me.'"
- What does it mean for the "historical-grammatical method" (or "hermeneutic") that the author of Hebrews makes Jesus the speaker of these words?
- What does it mean for Evangelical Protestant beliefs about canonicity and inerrancy that the author of Hebrews used and quoted the Septuagint (LXX) reading of Psalm 39:7?*
* Psalm 40:6 according to the Hebrew/Masoretic Text numbering. SEPTUAGINTA (Rahlfs) agrees with the Masoretic Text in adopting ωτια ("ears") [Ga (Psalterium Gallicanum)] here, rather than σωμα ("body") [B (Vaticanus), S (Sinaiticus), A (Alexandrinus)].
Saturday, September 22, 2007
"A Text Without a Context is a Pretext"
Renowned Evangelical Protestant scholar Dr. Donald A. Carson ascribed to his father, a Canadian minister, this phrase which has become widely-used:
"A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text."
It's usually quoted in the slightly truncated form, "A text without a context is a pretext."
I.e., without examining the context in which something (in this case, Scripture) was said, one can easily (or even intentionally) misappropriate or misuse or misapply or misrepresent a text to support a position that it in fact does not support.
But what if the context for a Scripture or a Scriptural passage is not simply its immediate location in the paragraph or pericope or chapter or book, but the Church?
"A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text."
It's usually quoted in the slightly truncated form, "A text without a context is a pretext."
I.e., without examining the context in which something (in this case, Scripture) was said, one can easily (or even intentionally) misappropriate or misuse or misapply or misrepresent a text to support a position that it in fact does not support.
But what if the context for a Scripture or a Scriptural passage is not simply its immediate location in the paragraph or pericope or chapter or book, but the Church?
Monday, August 06, 2007
John Rylands Papyrus 470
Reproduced by courtesy of the University Librarian and Director, The John Rylands University Library, The University of ManchesterYou can click on the above image to see in a larger size. You can also go here https://www.digitalcollections.manchester.ac.uk/view/MS-GREEK-P-00470/1 and view it in zoomable high resolution.
This papyrus fragment is a prayer to the Theotokos written about 250 A.D., per papyrologists who have examined the handwriting style. (Theotokos means "God-bearer," a term for Mary that was formally affirmed at the Third Ecumenical Council held at Ephesus in 431.) Some initially placed the papyrus in the fourth or fifth century (the John Rylands Library description below lists it as 3rd - 4th century), perhaps because they didn't think that Christians would have been praying to the Theotokos that early. If the early dating is correct, this prayer must have already been part of the Church's services or prayers, showing that petitions and prayers to the Theotokos and the Saints go back to the early days of the Church, perhaps to the second century.
Reference number: Greek Papyrus 470
Side: recto
Image Number: JRL021620tr
Image Title: Christian Prayer
Alternative Image Title: Prayer to the Virgin Mary
Subject: Christianity
Subject: Religion
Description: This fragment was probably a private copy of a prayer addressed to the Virgin Mary. It is written in brown ink. The verso is blank. Lines 4-9: "Mother of God (hear) my supplications: suffer us not (to be) in adversity, but deliver us from danger. Thou alone....". Aquired in 1917.
Date created: 3rd - 4th century
Time period covered: 1 BCE - 500 CE
Place covered: Egypt
Language: grc
Item height: 180 mm
Item width: 94 mm
Technique used: Scripts (writing)
Medium: Ink
Support material: Papyrus
Discovery site: Egypt
Bibliography: Catalogue of the Greek & Latin Papyri in The John Rylands Library at Manchester
Current repository: John Rylands University Library, The University of Manchester, U.K.
Type: Text
Category: Archives & Manuscripts
Sub-category: Fragments
Image rights: JRUL
Work rights: JRUL
Image sequence number: grc0470r
Image technique: Scanned from colour transparency by Gten, August 2003
Metadata language: eng-GB
Image ID: 100285
Resolution Size: 6
Format: JP2
Media Type: Image
File Name: jrl021620tr.jp2
Width: 3683
Height: 4743
- - -
The present form of the prayer in the Greek services and prayer books is:
Υπο την σην ευσπλαγχνιαν
καταφευγομεν Θεοτοκε.
τας ημων ικεσιας μη παριδης εν περιστασει,
αλλ' εκ κινδυνων λυτρωσαι ημας,
μονη αγνη, μονη ευλογημενη
This roughly translates as (adapted from the Wikipedia entry for "Sub tuum praesidium," the Latin version):
Beneath your compassion
we take refuge, Theotokos.
Our petitions do not despise in time of trouble,
but from dangers ransom us,
Only Holy, Only Blessed
In uncial (capital) letters this would be:
ΥΠΟ ΤΗΝ ΣΗΝ ΕΥΣΠΛΑΓΧΝΙΑΝ
ΚΑΤΑΦΕΥΓΟΜΕΝ ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕ.
ΤΑΣ ΗΜΩΝ ΙΚΕΣΙΑΣ ΜΗ ΠΑΡΙΔΗΣ ΕΝ ΠΕΡΙΣΤΑΣΕΙ,
ΑΛΛ' ΕΚ ΚΙΝΔΥΝΩΝ ΛΥΤΡΩΣΑΙ ΗΜΑΣ,
ΜΟΝΗ ΑΓΝΗ, ΜΟΝΗ ΕΥΛΟΓΗΜΕΝΗ.
The papyrus reads:
Note:
- The writer uses a lunate Sigma (i.e., "C") for Σ
- Gray letters are those missing or partly missing from the papyrus; I wasn't always consistent with whether to put a partial letter in gray or not
- Some words are split at the end of a line and continue on the next line
- The papyrus does not have spaces between words, but I used spaces in my transcription of the text
2 ΕΥCΠΛΑΓΧΝΙΑΝ
3 ΚΑΤΑΦΕΥΓΟΜΕΝ
4 ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕ ΤΑC ΗΜΩΝ
5 ΙΚΕCΙΑC ΜΗ ΠΑP
6 EΙΔΗC ΕM ΠΕΡΙCΤΑCΕΙ
7 ΑΛΛ' ΕΚ ΚΙΝΔΥΝΟΥ
8 ΡΥCΑΙ ΗΜΑC
9 ΜΟΝΗ ΑΓΝΗ, ΜΟΝ
10 Η ΕΥΛΟΓΗΜΕΝΗ
1 Beneath your
2 compassion
3 we take refuge
4 Theotokos Our
5 petitions do not de-
6 spise in time of trouble
7 but from danger
8 rescue us
9 Only Holy On-
10 ly Blessed
Note the following differences from the traditional reading:
6 "ΕΝ" is (mis)spelled as "ΕΜ," probably because the "Ν" sound would have assimilated with the "Π" in the next word and been pronounced like "ΜΠ," with the "Ν/Μ Π" perhaps even becoming a "mb" sound
7 ΚΙΝΔΥΝΟΥ (singular) is used instead of ΚΙΝΔΥΝΩΝ (plural)
8 ΡΥCΑΙ (ΡΥΣΑΙ) is used instead of ΛΥΤΡΩCΑΙ (ΛΥΤΡΩΣΑΙ)
- - -
Thanks go to Frederica Mathewes-Green for bringing this papyrus to my attention in her book THE LOST GOSPEL OF MARY: THE THEOTOKOS IN THREE ANCIENT TEXTS.
Wednesday, April 25, 2007
The Best Job in the World
Among some comments about the passing of the great Christian historian Jaroslav Pelikan (converted to Orthodoxy in 1998), I found this delightful bon mot:
Nancy Wellins Says:
May 16th, 2006 at 9:43 pm
(snip)
How vividly I recall his encomium to the academic life, which I recall verbatim, 30-odd years later: "Here I sit, day after day, reading exactly what I want, and at the end of every month the university mails me a rather large check. I’d almost feel guilty about it, but I’ve never been very good at feeling guilty."
From : http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/?p=12932#comment-586964
Wednesday, April 11, 2007
Two Wolves
A Cherokee Legend
An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life.
"A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy.
"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego."
He continued, "The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too."
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"
The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."
- - -
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.... Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.*
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.... So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.**
* The Epistle of St. Paul the Apostle to the Galatians 5:16-25; 6:7-8
** The Epistle of St. Paul the Apostle to the Romans 8:6-8,12-14
(New American Standard Bible)
An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life.
"A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy.
"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego."
He continued, "The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too."
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"
The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."
- - -
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.... Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.*
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.... So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.**
* The Epistle of St. Paul the Apostle to the Galatians 5:16-25; 6:7-8
** The Epistle of St. Paul the Apostle to the Romans 8:6-8,12-14
(New American Standard Bible)
Monday, March 05, 2007
"If someone disagrees, kiss him."
A great post today (slightly edited by me) from a respondent on an Orthodox forum under the topic "Debate with Roman Catholics":
I learned some time ago from debating on this forum, and in general from debating with all those wonderful people that I debated and argued with (or argued against), that there is no true fulfillment in debating, only egoistic pain from proving oneself to be right for the egoistic pleasure of being right.
If someone asks, tell him.
If someone disagrees, kiss him.
If someone argues, leave him.
For much more good can that person receive by your subdued and humble nature than by your arrogant knowledge.
In this you will know how much you care about someone – for every minute spent arguing with someone is a minute wasted not praying for someone.
After all, we with all our knowledge cannot change one iota of someone’s mind without the will of the Lord.
So, pray a lot and argue only a little.
IC XC
NI KA
Thursday, October 05, 2006
John 1:1 - What The Fathers Didn't Say
In the latest thread on John 1:1 (a subject that comes up with monotonous regularity on B-Greek), James Spinti (who works for Eisenbrauns) wrote the following post:
As I asked the last time this whole thing came up--maybe 3 weeks ago? Why does no one who is arguing for the "a god" translation go back to the early church fathers who knew Greek? Is this verse ever used as an argument in any of their treatises (both for and against Arianism)? They KNEW Greek, they spoke it, thought in it, breathed it-if you will. As far as I can tell from my somewhat limited reading (but more than the last time the question came up!), neither side used John 1 as an argument. It was a non-starter, grammatically.
I am open to being shown wrong, but in view of our more limited knowledge of Greek, we should show a bit of humility before their silence in using the supposed "indefiniteness" of QEOS as an argument. Maybe we should concentrate on reading Greek, and not trying to proof text our own theological viewpoint, especially if our knowledge of Greek is limited to a year or three of college/seminary Greek (and only NT Koine at that!).
Frustratedly,
James
(yes, I have an advanced degree in Classics...)
Saturday, August 05, 2006
Phôs Hilaron Φως Ιλαρον
Φως ιλαρον αγιας δοξης αθανατου Πατρος,
Ουρανιου, αγιου, μακαρος Ιησου Χριστε,
Ελθοντες επι την ηλιου δυσιν, ιδοντες φως εσπερινον,
Υμνουμεν Πατερα, Υιον, και Αγιον Πνευμα, Θεον,
Αξιον σε εν πασι καιροις υμνεισθαι φωναις αισιαις,
Υιε Θεου, ζωην ο διδους,
Διο ο κοσμος σε δοξαζει.
This is an ancient Christian hymn, perhaps the oldest Christian hymn we have, dating from the 3rd or 4th century.
Here is a very literal translation:
O-light cheerful of-the-holy glory of-the-immortal Father,
Of-the-heavenly, holy, blessed, O-Jesus Christ,
We-having-come to the of-the-sun setting, we-having-seen (the) light evening,
We-sing-to (the) Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, God,
Worthy (are) you (sing.) at all times to-be-sung-to with-voices auspicious,
O-Son of-God, life the-one giving,
Wherefore the world you (sing.) glorifies.
A better translation (mine again):
O Joyous Light of the holy glory of the immortal Father,
(Light) of the heavenly, holy, blessed, O Jesus Christ,
Having come to the setting of the sun, and having beheld the evening light,
We hymn the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, God.
Worthy art Thou to be hymned at all times with favorable voices,
O Son of God, who gives life,
Wherefore the whole world glorifies Thee.
Ουρανιου, αγιου, μακαρος Ιησου Χριστε,
Ελθοντες επι την ηλιου δυσιν, ιδοντες φως εσπερινον,
Υμνουμεν Πατερα, Υιον, και Αγιον Πνευμα, Θεον,
Αξιον σε εν πασι καιροις υμνεισθαι φωναις αισιαις,
Υιε Θεου, ζωην ο διδους,
Διο ο κοσμος σε δοξαζει.
This is an ancient Christian hymn, perhaps the oldest Christian hymn we have, dating from the 3rd or 4th century.
Here is a very literal translation:
O-light cheerful of-the-holy glory of-the-immortal Father,
Of-the-heavenly, holy, blessed, O-Jesus Christ,
We-having-come to the of-the-sun setting, we-having-seen (the) light evening,
We-sing-to (the) Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, God,
Worthy (are) you (sing.) at all times to-be-sung-to with-voices auspicious,
O-Son of-God, life the-one giving,
Wherefore the world you (sing.) glorifies.
A better translation (mine again):
O Joyous Light of the holy glory of the immortal Father,
(Light) of the heavenly, holy, blessed, O Jesus Christ,
Having come to the setting of the sun, and having beheld the evening light,
We hymn the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, God.
Worthy art Thou to be hymned at all times with favorable voices,
O Son of God, who gives life,
Wherefore the whole world glorifies Thee.
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